From reading some blogs, you’d think that the response in the blogosphere to the Baptist Press article on Mark Driscoll’s continued vulgarity was almost unanimously negative. However, I ask you to please consider the following:
Expository Thoughts is a blog that has a number of young pastors as contributors. Any objective observer would have to admit that they are not disposed to be “anti-Driscoll.” (Indeed some of Driscoll’s most ardent defenders often express concerns, albeit usually failing to articulate just what it is that they are concerned about.) Although they don’t specifically interact with the BP story, there are several recent posts that are pertinent. See here (don’t miss Jerry Wragg’s comment,) here for a take on the NYT article and here where we see that Driscoll evidently missed an opportunity to preach the gospel on CNN.
Bart Barber compares Mark Driscoll with an exemplary pastor of his youth. I find the juxtaposition intriguing given that we often hear that a major problem in the SBC is the preoccupation with numbers.
Here is a careful and comprehensive take on the issue.
Peter Lumpkins weighs in here, here, and here. In his last post, Bro. Lumpkins gets to the heart of the issue:
Alas, as it is, I suppose those of us who foolishly questioned the liaison with a ministry which strangely but fully and clearly endorses encouraging husbands and wives to prayerfully consider sodomy as a viable Christian option to enhance intimacy together will just have to face reality:Â we are apparently woefully out of touch with what’s hip today in reaching the multitudes with the gospel.
Sadly, the counsel of these men is rejected by many of the young Southern Baptists in the blogosphere due to the misguided perception that they are too old, too traditional, that they belong to the wrong political faction or whatever, and that the old paths just aren’t going to cut it today.
Harry Emerson Fosdick said that the soldiers returning home from the horrors of World War I simply wouldn’t believe the fantastic tales revealed in the Bible about the Virgin Birth and the bodily Resurrection, so we have to give them something else lest the church become irrelevant in the 20th Century in the wake of Darwin and the destruction of war. The church growth gurus of the past few decades used similar reasoning to justify their practice of preaching to felt needs and proclaiming a message of positive thinking, rarely if ever getting around to clearly proclaiming the law and the gospel.
Mark Driscoll is certainly more sound doctrinally than the above examples, but the rationale behind his appropriation of the coarser aspects of our culture is the same. (And can doctrine ultimately be divorced from practice?) I simply ask those who think this continued parade of vulgarity is what is necessary to reach lost people today to consider the following comment from Scott Shaffer:
“I’d wager that if you went back through church history, you’d be hard pressed to find orthodox ministers of the gospel discussing sex in the same manner Driscoll does. Yet, the topic has always been relevant to mankind. So, are we to believe that MD is the first gospel minister to get it right?”
The Sixties radicals refused to listen to anyone over 30. It appears that some young (and some not so young) Southern Baptist radicals refuse to listen to anyone over 40 or anyone who they perceive to be too “traditional” in their methodology. When “young leaders” are more alienated by editorial judgment and journalistic practices than they are by Driscoll’s actions, then I submit that it isn’t Baptist Press who has the problem. If the blog responses to this controversy are indicative of the views of “younger leaders” as a whole, this 35 year old Southern Baptist layman has no small degree of trepidation about seeing the baton handed over to them, as some say needs to be done. Why should older leaders have to get out of the way to begin with, assuming they are still faithful to their calling?
One searches in vain to find the concept of retirement in the Bible. Did Moses get out of the way when he reached “retirement age?” How about the apostle John? The ministry is a calling, not a profession. On the subject of retirement, I once heard John MacArthur say something like “What am I going to retire from? Preaching the Gospel?” If a young leader who is truly gifted to teach is being stifled in his current context, then why wait to be “promoted” at “his church?” Instead, why not seek out some other avenue of ministry in which he may be useful, even if it means changing churches or locales? Did William Carey let the naysayers hold him back? No doubt there are many small churches in rural as well as urban areas would be happy to have some gifted young people come and serve. I can think of once such church now that may well have had to close the doors by this point were it not for a friend of mine going there and taking up the preaching and teaching ministry.
Earlier I charged that the problem isn’t so much a Generation Gap as it is a Discernment Gap. Although it pains me greatly to say so, I don’t hesitate to say that I’d rather see the Southern Baptist Convention fade away rather than see it given it over to those who who evidently fail to see (or even consider) the issue when a prominent evangelical pastor places a link to (at best) a borderline porn site on his church website. I wonder how many people will visit a site like the one Mars Hill has linked right now, and once they’ve had their fill of that and find that it doesn’t satisfy them, will eventually move on to harder core sites? Depravity being what it is and the fact that we are never free from sin in this life, it’s not much of a leap for a man to go from a site like the one to which Driscoll links to one that allows him to gratify his lusts to the full.
The standard reply of his defenders is “This is what has to be done to reach people today,” especially those who are considered “unreachable.” Haven’t we heard that before? My friends, no one is beyond the reach of God’s grace! Many such “unreachables” have been reached by very “traditional” ministries. The church certainly has failed in many cases in reaching out to the prostitute, the stoner, the gangbanger, the frightened unwed mother to be, and others who would make many church folks who don’t understand the mission of the church uncomfortable. But we don’t have to get down into the gutter ourselves to reach the “unreachable.” I may not literally be the chief of sinners, but neither am I a prude who has lived a sheltered lifestyle far removed from the realities of today’s secular culture.
I live in the Greater New Orleans area. Technically it may be somewhat more churched than Seattle, but who would disagree that New Orleans is practically unrivaled when it comes to open wickedness and depravity? As a man who has during the course of his life wasted many years in indulging in nearly all of what this world has to offer, has stared into the abyss and has now been granted repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, I can assure you that there are few things that I find shocking, including the material to which Driscoll links. However, it is disappointing to say the least when the church embraces the more vulgar aspects of our culture out of an apparent conviction that it is what has to be done to reach the lost in this postmodern age.
A preacher once told me, “What you win them with is what you will have to keep them with.” That’s true whether it is clown shows, promoting the power of positive thinking or demonstrating how cool and liberated one is when it comes to modern sexual practices.
In closing, let’s consider the following:
The glory of the gospel is that when the Church is absolutely different from the world, she invariably attracts it. It is then that the world is made to listen to her message, though it may hate it at first. That is how revival comes. That must also be true of us as individuals. It should not be our ambition to be as much like everybody else as we can, though we happen to be Christian, but rather to be as different from everybody who is not a Christian as we can possibly be. Our ambition should be to be like Christ, the more like Him the better, and the more like Him we become, the more we shall be unlike everybody who is not a Christian.
D.Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Studies in the Sermon on the Mount
The subject [The World] is one which demands the best attention of all who profess and call themselves Christians. In every age of the Church separation from the world has always been one of the grand evidences of a work of grace in the heart. He that has been really born of the Spirit, and made a new creature in Christ Jesus, has always endeavoured to “come out from the world,” and live a separate life. They who have only had the name of Christian, without the reality, have always refused to “come out and be separate” from the world.
He that desires to “come out from the world, and be separate,” must steadily and habitually refuse to be guided by the world’s standard of right and wrong.
In all doubtful cases let us often try ourselves by recollecting the eye of God. Should I go to such and such a place, or do such and such a thing, if I really thought God was looking at me?
J.C. Ryle, Practical Religion
Chris,
You still haven’t listened to Driscoll’s sermon from the 20/20 conference on the “seven views of culture” have you? Please stop writing these things until you have listened to that sermon. I also encourage you to listed to the last 25 minutes of his sermon on “worldliness” from this past Sunday. It’s all very intriguing.
I’m sure you will probably blow this off though and continue to put your head in the sand. I pray this isn’t the case though.
Chris,
Enjoyed your post. Concise and thoughtful.
Morris
[…] on Mark Driscoll/Baptist Press/Young Leaders Controversy Summary on the Mark Driscoll/Baptist Press/Young Leader Controversy One Pilgrim’s Progress __________________ Chris Poe Member, Grace Community Baptist Church, Mandeville, LA […]
“I wonder how many people will visit a site like the one Mars Hill has linked right now, and once they’ve had their fill of that and find that it doesn’t satisfy them, will eventually move on to harder core sites? Depravity being what it is and the fact that we are never free from sin in this life, it’s not much of a leap for a man to go from a site like the one to which Driscoll links to one that allows him to gratify his lusts to the full.”
I am new to the field of logic and argumentation, so correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t this a slippery slope fallacy?
Ronnie,
Yes it’s all very intriguing indeed. Driscoll references Harold Best’s Unceasing Worship and tells us that all of life is worship. He makes some good points as he often does, but it’s hardly earth shattering except perhaps for those who have never sat under any semblance of Biblical ministry whatsoever.
The caption on the SEBTS media page reads as follows:
“Expounding on one view of culture, Mark Driscoll explains how Christians can view everything in their lives as a worshipful act to God.”
Based on the material on his site and his link to “Christian Nymphos,” this would presumably include the possibility of a man sodomizing his wife as a worshipful act to God.
It is my prayer that those who are in a position to speak truth to Mark Driscoll will help him realize his error, that he will remove the material from his website, that he will refrain from such actions in the future, and that he would live that which he preaches in his best moments. Otherwise, lest he repents, he at least risks becoming known as the sodomy or “nympho” pastor along with being known as the “cussing pastor.” And that will be nobody’s fault but his own.
Grace and Peace,
Chris
(edited 2/18/09, 5:42pm for clarity and to add the last two sentences.)
Ronnie,
I’m not sure how Chris listening to more of Driscoll is supposed to negate what he is lamenting in this particular post. Did Driscoll address specifically anything here? Did he make explicit corrections to specific concerns Chris voiced? If so, what?
Nor is it at all fair to accuse him of putting his head in the sand when he’s publicly voicing his concerns!
Brian,
O.K. You are wrong. It is not slippery slope.
Chris appears to me to be rhetorically suggesting, given Calvinists’ stellar record of embracing utter human depravity, to have one’s fallen erotica senses teased, as he understands Driscoll’s perspective, it is worth asking if Driscoll’s prescription for healthy sexuality is not inferior–or even worse–than the proverbial disease.
Also, Chris seems to be alluding to the intensely addictive nature of our sexualness and its power to control us, hopelessly undertowing the unwary swimmer further out in an immoral sea
Thus, there’s nothing in his statement you cite that necessarily warrants “slippery-slope.”
With that, I am…
Peter
I love that command that you stop writing until you listen to a Driscoll sermon!
I have a better idea: let’s stop listening to Driscoll until he takes some corrective action regarding the issues at hand.
The overwhelming Christian Pragmatism in his defense is staggering. “It doesn’t matter what he says or how he says it, he gets results!….so, it must be Right”
(Twice in one year I find myself agreeing with Peter Lumpkins……..this IS serious!)
Ed,
It’s good when brothers can find at least a couple of things on which to agree, ah? Don’t get your hopes up though; I plan on putting up some anti-Calvinist rhetoric soon (just kidding).
Have a good day, brother.
With that, I am…
Peter
Chris,
Please email me your email address. I looked in vain on your website and was unable to locate it.
Thanks,
chadwick
Mr Poe: Thank you for these comments. I would hope that many people who are making such a big deal about defending Mark Driscoll would stop and consider some of the things that you present. I recently read one brother’s blog that suggests that one’s position on Driscoll determines where you think the direction of the SBC is going.
What has happened to the Holy Scriptures being our authority? has anyone read lately what Paul wrote to the Ephesians about filthy talk and corse jesting? Paul was a pretty “missional” guy as I recall.
I would hope that some of my friends and mentors at SEBTS would read this post.
Good thoughts Chris.
Heath,
Great point about the Scriptures being our guide instead of whatever seems to be working at the time. I know from both public and private discussions that that’s not how the “Great Commission Resurgence” folks see it, but I think pragmatism really is a big part of it.
You’re right that one’s opinion on Driscoll is an indicator of your outlook on the SBC, but it’s way too simplistic do as many are doing and to view it as there only being two camps, especially if it is assumed that Baptist Identity=non or anti Calvinist. It may be true that those are the two dominant parties, but by no means does everybody fit neatly into one or the other camp.
As one might imagine from the contents of this post, I look with some bemusement at these navel gazing posts that have recently appeared about the generational angst in the SBC. Of course I am not from a Southern Baptist background and wasn’t even raised in an evangelical church, so I have some difficulty identifying because it doesn’t speak to my experience. But that being said, with all of these posts about 2nd and 3rd generation, you’d almost think it was the Dutch Reformed in Grand Rapids, the Greek Orthodox or some other similar ethnic social club that is under consideration.
Chris, I’ve appreciated your contribution to this particular conversation across two or three blogs now.
While I’m a fairly enthusiastic advocate of the emerging church, I still think that Driscoll’s approach on contextualizing this particular matter might be a little ill-advised for the Sunday morning sermon. It might be better to deal with these things within the youth ministry, the Christian college chapel service or lecture series, and other venues.
I’ve listened to many a Driscoll sermon and appreciate his strong writing on the Gospel as well as the work he does in Seattle. That said, can some of the Driscoll fanboys on the blogs simply admit the man’s not infallible?
[…] name yesterday at the Shepherd’s Conference in a message that extracts the teeth from the Mark Driscoll apologists and others who defend vulgarity in the name of contextualization. Click here for the message.  […]
[…] 7, 2010 by Chris Poe Just over a year ago, I noted the parallels between the current contextual/missional/hipster/urban church planting movement inspired by Mark […]
[…] Some of the most viewed posts in the history of this blog have concerned certain teachings and actions of Mark Driscoll and especially the response (or lack thereof) from Calvinistic leaders in the Southern Baptist Convention and elsewhere who I thought should know better. It was certainly the period in which I was most active in blogging, both here and elsewhere. (Hopefully I will start posting more regularly in the near future.) To find these 2009 posts, you can click the “Mark Driscoll” category in the sidebar to the right, with the more important posts being here, here, and here.) […]